Interviews

Barnes & Noble Review Interview with Marie-Helene Bertino

The stories of a nine-year-old aspiring jazz singer, an aging music club owner, and a lovestruck teacher come together in Marie-Helene Bertino's smashing and assured debut. Bertino talks about moving from writing short stories to long-form fiction, the difference between longing and loneliness, and how music informs her writing, and much more in this free-ranging conversation for the Barnes & Noble Review. — Miwa Messer, Director, Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers

Your collection Safe as Houses won the University of Iowa's Short Fiction Award and a Pushcart Prize. How did you make the transition from short fiction to the novel? Were there any surprises along the way?

How did I make the transition? Gently. And often. I switched back and forth from writing 2 A.M. at The Cat's Pajamas to the stories that made up my first collection, Safe as Houses.

You know how you go on vacation and take a beautiful photo of your beloved on the beach? And at home you fiddle with the photograph in your photo editing program of choice, and you think, I bet this would look better in black and white? So you click the "black and white" button (ah, technology!) and the result is strangely unsatisfying. Gone is the blue of the beach, the lavender of your boo's hair. Something that worked in the color photo doesn't translate.

It's the same with writing short stories and novels. Anyone who thinks a novel is just a short story, but longer, will feel unsatisfied if they ever decide to punish themselves by writing a novel. Each form has its own "rules," sound, preoccupations, and strengths. You can't just click a button. I've tried.

Honestly, the biggest surprise along the way was how loyal I was to writing this novel. For twelve years, when no earthly presence was making it seem like a good idea, while my doubts grew and the size of my apartment shrank, I returned again and again to the same twenty-four hours in Philadelphia, tweaking this interaction, inventing this character, retooling the descriptions diligently until they did what I wanted — after any other sane person would have given up — until I figured, Well, I guess I'm not sane, because I loved this story and because it was fun.

Nine-year-old Madeleine Altimari has the voice of a torch singer and a stubborn streak. How much of yourself do you see in Madeleine?

Besides the unfortunate bowl haircut and the fear of roaches (paralyzing!), not much. Madeleine is a wish I made. She is way braver than I was, more willing to go it alone. Though I liked to sing when I was little, my voice wasn't anywhere near her prodigious range. She curses in front of adults and is not interested in boys at all. I was kind of boy crazy (see later list of '60s musicians). However, the way Madeleine feels about singing is the way I feel about writing. Tenacity beats through both of our hearts. But I'll tell you a secret: I'm way more like Pedro (the dog with wanderlust).

Emma Straub writes, "There is funny poetry in the sound of loneliness, and Bertino has found it." How does loneliness underpin the choices your characters make?

Most of the characters in 2 A.M.at The Cat's Pajamas are longing for something. Longing is loneliness — with a job! I think it's one of the most narrative of emotions. It drives us to do wonderful/terrible things. It directly influences Sarina's decision to brave the party. She is trying to say yes to more things because she worries she is hiding out in her own life. Madeleine's longing for her mother is why she sings, though, like many of us, she doesn't realize it. Pedro is one of my favorite characters because he is so much more aware of his loneliness than the others. He is in love and is not sure with whom. Longing lives inside of him right next to joie de vivre. The closest salve he knows is to explore endlessly.

Jazz — and music on the whole — is a buoyant force in the novel. What kind of research did you do? What did you listen to while you were writing?

In a way, I've always been a student of music. I grew up singing and performing in musical theater. I played the piano (horribly). I was bananas over music from the 1960s: Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Nick Drake. I was a music writer for three years in New York, and in the last year of revising, I took guitar lessons. It was exactly as difficult as I thought it would be, and my respect for people who are good at playing instruments grew. One of my best pals is Shawn Aileen Clark, a jazz singer. I had her read a final draft and bit my nails off while I waited. She pointed out a few things only someone who has led a jazz band for fifteen years would know, which was thrilling. The songs I listened to are referenced here and there in the text, and there is a mix I made of them on Spotify (spoti.fi/1sHQJxv).

The way the cast of characters comes together for the finale at 2 A.M. at The Cat's Pajamas has a madcap, cinematic quality. If this book were a film, whom would you cast?

Like pie in the sky, anyone I want? Mark Ruffalo is the only man I could ever see playing Lorca. No question. Done. I think Kristen Wiig would make a great Sarina Greene. She could bring the full range of light and dark tones I intended. And I would pray for a heretofore unknown crazy- talented little girl to play Madeleine, who is hopefully out there right now, singing her heart out and not thinking about show business at all.

You worked on 2 A.M. at The Cat's Pajamas for twelve years. How do you know when to stop working on a project?

Part of what took so long is that I had to grow into the person who could write this book.

A few years ago I asked my mother to send me her secret recipe for homemade pizza. She's been making it for a million years and it's become so second nature. So, she sent me this gorgeous email with hilarious references and side notes, attempting to explain ambiguous measurements. One of my favorites had to do with how much flour to use. She wrote: "It could take 2 1/2 cups or 3. The dough will tell you when it's dough."

In 2 A.M. at The Cat's Pajamas, the #1 rule of singing is listed as KNOW YOURSELF. I think this might be the #1 rule for everything; definitely writing. When you know yourself, you know what you are and are not capable of. You can trick yourself into being smarter and more creative. And you can listen fully to your project. You can learn how to tell when the dough is telling you it's dough.

Whom have you discovered lately?

One of my superpowers is discovering things a million years after everyone else does. And then passionately describing them to others who are like, yeah, we've heard of Drake already. So, I just discovered the super-fine stories of Caitlin Horrocks, whom Barnes & Noble discovered three years ago.